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Author Topic: Ahhh the joy's of tanking  (Read 2005 times)
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Lorddundar
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« on: June 22, 2005, 03:41:31 PM »

Well now that I have some people to tank for I have begun the long process of hunting down info about the AT and builds.

So far what I have found are that there are two types of tankers the taunt/provoke tankers and the punchvoke tankers. The theroies abound about how to control aggro some say that your PBAoE attacks plus auras will hold all you need (punchvokers) and other say that without tant/provoke you are just wasted team space. So GH and Mei Mei whats your oppion? Considering that GH uses Mubpots and knockdown to hold aggro I feel that he could understand the punchvoke school of thought, and Mei Mei seems to be of the taunt school. I feel that taunt is completely necessary and was even considering getting some fear powers to keep the baddies curled up in little balls for the blasters to AoE. What do you all think?

Also Mei Mei from what I was reading the fighting pool is up in the air. Chippy loves it with SU Fortress, and you just took boxing, but others say that you can reach your caps with out tough and boxing doesn't cause punchvoke, thus the only good power is weave but it will cost you two other power slots. For me the slots are important and I have to decide between fighting and superspeed pool for hasten or weave.

Also Mei Mei what kind of attacks do you really use? I see whirling hands (PBAoE) as good and of course the first one Barrage, taunt, but do you use Stun or any of the other attacks or just stick to taunting/Whirling hands?

Mark
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Lorddundar
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« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2005, 10:35:57 AM »

Well after some work, and work on the test server, I rebuilt Dundar. This build seems to hold aggro really well better than I expected, plus I capped my Damage resist. Now to cap my defense Smiley I went with both provoke and taunt. But I think I can drop taunt in the future or change it to challange for the single pull.

I now have tanking stories as we just did Positrons TF last night with a pickup group. It took forever! But the new build was shining. Just wish we had a blaster.

Now I need to figure out how many reds and oranges is tomany for the group to handle at one time.
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Brak Zanagin
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« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2005, 10:40:10 AM »

I taunt constantly with GH.  I have it 3 slotted with recharge reductions so it cycles quickly even when i'm in granite armor.  Generally speaking, I can't count on my attacks to hold aggro.  If i'm tanking +5 mobs I can't assume that I'll be able to hit them regularly.  My aura (mudpots) helps me hold aggro, but it pulses.  The Invuln aura (invincibility) is always on, so if you run by a mob you will grab their aggro,  Because you don't do damage to mobs, I would recommend taking provoke and three slotting it. 

Second, fighting is worthwhile for only one power, Weave.  Fully slotted it gives you a 40% defense buff to everything.  This includes psionics, which is the primary point of taking it.  When you start fighting groups like the carnival of shadows you need all of the defense you can get because you have no resistance to psionics.  This happens whenever you start tanking 40+ mobs.
Fighting is the sort of thing you work on after you've gotten your top level ability.
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Duke of Avalon
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« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2005, 10:41:34 AM »

Well after some work, and work on the test server, I rebuilt Dundar. This build seems to hold aggro really well better than I expected, plus I capped my Damage resist. Now to cap my defense Smiley I went with both provoke and taunt. But I think I can drop taunt in the future or change it to challange for the single pull.

I now have tanking stories as we just did Positrons TF last night with a pickup group. It took forever! But the new build was shining. Just wish we had a blaster.

Now I need to figure out how many reds and oranges is tomany for the group to handle at one time.


Actually, you can't cap you defebse,  The more you add to it the higher level mobs you can fight without getting hit.

Lemme find some threads on this to explain.
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Duke of Avalon
Lorddundar
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« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2005, 10:45:48 AM »

Yeah the idea was to cap my defense by getting it as high as possible but the mobs will always have a 5% chance of  hitting you. So even if my Defense is 180% verses a green it would still count as 95% thats how I understand it.
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Brak Zanagin
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« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2005, 10:52:43 AM »

Here, the tanker guide thread.  Scroll down and look for the numbers on Invuln slotting:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=1295041&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1#1295041

Try and read the tanker forum on a regular basis.  You can pick up a lot of little things.
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Duke of Avalon
Lorddundar
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« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2005, 11:07:51 AM »

Yeah I read over most of the guides last night. That's pretty much what I understand that no mater how high your defense the mob always has a 5% chance to hit. But the higher the con of the mob the more defense you need to get to the 5% chance to hit.
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Lorddundar
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« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2005, 11:24:49 AM »

I taunt constantly with GH.  I have it 3 slotted with recharge reductions so it cycles quickly even when i'm in granite armor.  Generally speaking, I can't count on my attacks to hold aggro.  If i'm tanking +5 mobs I can't assume that I'll be able to hit them regularly.  My aura (mudpots) helps me hold aggro, but it pulses.  The Invuln aura (invincibility) is always on, so if you run by a mob you will grab their aggro,  Because you don't do damage to mobs, I would recommend taking provoke and three slotting it. 

Second, fighting is worthwhile for only one power, Weave.  Fully slotted it gives you a 40% defense buff to everything.  This includes psionics, which is the primary point of taking it.  When you start fighting groups like the carnival of shadows you need all of the defense you can get because you have no resistance to psionics.  This happens whenever you start tanking 40+ mobs.
Fighting is the sort of thing you work on after you've gotten your top level ability.

Ok So You Taunt constantly (Do you use hasten and three recharge reductions?) With 6 taunt enhancements the recharge time for taunt is 3 seconds and its activation time is 3 seconds. With hasten you can cut it in half or close to 1.76 seconds. With 6 Recharge reductions and hasten you can get it down to .75 seconds to recharge = perma taunt.

""I can't count on my attacks to hold aggro.  If i'm tanking +5 mobs I can't assume that I'll be able to hit them regularly.  My aura (mudpots) helps me hold aggro, but it pulses.  The Invuln aura (invincibility) is always on, so if you run by a mob you will grab their aggro,  Because you don't do damage to mobs, I would recommend taking provoke and three slotting it. ""

That last statment I don't understand.  Undecided  If you have a hard time hitting mobs to hold aggro, assuming +5 mobs, do your mud pots need to hit? or do they work just like my invincibility and "always" hit with the provoke? Also if my Incincibility always provokes then wouldn't that work better than the provoke power that needs to hit? The reason that I am taking provoke now is so I can spam taunt/provoke constantly in diffrent directions. When I get Incincibility I should hold mobs in melee with me and then use taunt to get the outlyers, thats just how I thought it would work, but you and Mei Mei have more experiance with it. Am I wrong to think that Invincibility will hold mobs to me?

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Brak Zanagin
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« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2005, 02:11:32 PM »

Ok So You Taunt constantly (Do you use hasten and three recharge reductions?) With 6 taunt enhancements the recharge time for taunt is 3 seconds and its activation time is 3 seconds. With hasten you can cut it in half or close to 1.76 seconds. With 6 Recharge reductions and hasten you can get it down to .75 seconds to recharge = perma taunt.
The only reason I slot taunt with rchredux is so when i'm in granite it comes back quick enough to use it on something else.  A lot of the shit I do (dropping 3 slots into Swift, for example) is me trying to work around the limitations of granite.  I don't think it's worth slotting with recharge redux if you aren't a stoner, doubly so if you also have Provoke.

I can't count on my attacks to hold aggro. If i'm tanking +5 mobs I can't assume that I'll be able to hit them regularly. My aura (mudpots) helps me hold aggro, but it pulses. The Invuln aura (invincibility) is always on, so if you run by a mob you will grab their aggro, Because you don't do damage to mobs, I would recommend taking provoke and three slotting it.

That last statment I don't understand.  Undecided  If you have a hard time hitting mobs to hold aggro, assuming +5 mobs, do your mud pots need to hit? or do they work just like my invincibility and "always" hit with the provoke? Also if my Incincibility always provokes then wouldn't that work better than the provoke power that needs to hit? The reason that I am taking provoke now is so I can spam taunt/provoke constantly in diffrent directions. When I get Incincibility I should hold mobs in melee with me and then use taunt to get the outlyers, thats just how I thought it would work, but you and Mei Mei have more experiance with it. Am I wrong to think that Invincibility will hold mobs to me?

Thankfully Mud Pots is autohit.  I learned today that it actually has two functions, first it's got an aura like invinc, and second it does damage which punchvokes.  Invinc just has the passive aura.  The problem is that invinc is the worst of the tanker aura powers at holding aggro.  If you're handling a small team, with a max of 4, you can probably hold the aggro.  When you're handling a large team, lots of damage is being done to the targets and they might peel off of you.  Additionally, as you fight higher level stuff, the duration of the taunt will be much shorter.
When I first started fighting Nemesis in PI,  I could barely hold their attention because they were 43 and I was 37 (or less even).  I had no problem with the damage they were giving me because my resists were capped and they weren't debuffing me.  The problem was that every time someone else shot them, they'd leave.  Taunt kept them around, but after a couple seconds they would get loose again.  If I had provoke properly slotted (2acc, 1 taunt is my guess), I think I would have been fine.

What you should do is determine what kind of tanker you want to be.  Wth invuln and some secondaries it's possible to solo effectively.  If you're going for the consumate team tanker, I would recommend provoke.  When I give advice on these sorts of things my own beliefs cloud my judgement and I error on the side of holding aggro and away from sustained DPS or other things.  Generally speaking Mei Mei is completely devoted to holding aggro.  GH is only partially slated that way and I am thinking about respeccing to make him able to hold more.
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Duke of Avalon
Lorddundar
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« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2005, 02:55:15 PM »

Nice yeah I'm looking to hold aggro in a group enviorment as well so I guess provoke it is then, Have you had any experiance with fear and taunt? I could give up the PBAoE fear effect for the single pull challange. That would give me three ways to pull aggro.
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Brak Zanagin
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« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2005, 03:47:32 PM »

Fear from the presence pool?  I actually don't know what your secondary is.  Generally speaking, I like my mobs dead.  After dead I like them sitting right near by, beating on me.  Fear is generally a problem for fire tankers because fire makes mobs (and me) run away.  I don't have a lot of experience with this, but fear sounds like a way for all hell to break loose.  This is a good reason for a controller to play with a tanker,  My theory is that loose mobs kill blasters.

At the point where you're trying to scrape one mob off a dopy blaster (or worse, me when i'm playing Kuai Long) you should probably just go over and punch them.  At least, that's what I do.  Challenge, Confront or whatever still needs to hit in order to do it's job, and if i'm going to hit something I might as well hit it with a stone mallet in the balls.  Ya know?

Oh, and i'd definately go with a perma-dull pain.  You need it more than I do since you don't have good regen.

I should find a good thread on tanking tips.  Corners are your friend.  Breaking LOS is a key tool to bunching mobs together.  Scattered mobs die slower, etc.
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Duke of Avalon
Lorddundar
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« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2005, 05:27:36 PM »

Fear has been changed it now makes the mob cower in fear not flee as before. This is why I was considering it. Think of it as a control power rather than an aww shit button. Feared mobs don't attack you and are easier to hit.

Perma dull pain is the best. Gives you great heal times and keeps your max hp up buy almost 50%. I'm already on the way to it just need hasten.
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Brak Zanagin
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« Reply #12 on: June 24, 2005, 09:22:18 AM »

Fear has been changed it now makes the mob cower in fear not flee as before. This is why I was considering it. Think of it as a control power rather than an aww shit button. Feared mobs don't attack you and are easier to hit.

Perma dull pain is the best. Gives you great heal times and keeps your max hp up buy almost 50%. I'm already on the way to it just need hasten.

Oh yeah, I remember reading that now.  I would copy to test and see if it's any good.
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Duke of Avalon
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