A Dance with Dragons (SPOILERS)

[Lucy St. Jude]

I've got less than 100 pages to go (not counting the appendices) so I wanted to make a thread to discuss conspiracy theories, et al.

[Lucy St. Jude]

Ser Barristan strongly implied Mad King Aerys took the old right of first night with Lord Tywin's wife.  Thus, there's a distinct possibility that Cersei or Jaime or both, could be Aerys'.  They're fraternal, so they could have different fathers.  Cersei certainly is paranoid enough... 

The youngest Sand Snake is the bastard daughter of Prince Oberyn and a septa.  Septa Lemore is a soiled septa about the right age...

[Rainee]

Ser Barristan strongly implied Mad King Aerys took the old right of first night with Lord Tywin's wife.  Thus, there's a distinct possibility that Cersei or Jaime or both, could be Aerys'.  They're fraternal, so they could have different fathers.  Cersei certainly is paranoid enough... 

Maybe, but Jesus H Christ on a polka dotted pogo stick, how many freaking Targaryen bastards would that make running around?  I'm preferring to see that episode as explaining why Tywin got involved in the coup.

[Andromache]

Maybe, but Jesus H Christ on a polka dotted pogo stick, how many freaking Targaryen bastards would that make running around?  I'm preferring to see that episode as explaining why Tywin got involved in the coup.

For realz, how many popped out of the woodwork now? Is just getting silly.

Was anyone else disappointed with this book?

[Lucy St. Jude]

Uh, zero?  Dany and Aegon are both trueborn Targaryens.

[Andromache]

Uh, zero?  Dany and Aegon are both trueborn Targaryens.

I thought there was one more, plus John Snow.

[Lucy St. Jude]

Jon's not a Targaryen, Davos found out that Ned got Jon on a fishwife.

[otter]

For realz, how many popped out of the woodwork now? Is just getting silly.
Was anyone else disappointed with this book?

I thought the addition of a Targaryen with no foreshadowing was a bit weak.  If there's a sudden addition of even more this late in the series it'd be even weaker.

I was a bit frustrated that none of the cliffhangers were resolved.  Dany is still in Moreen and still is in the exact same position with the slavers.  No trial for Cersei.  Brienne is supposedly moving about but the last time we saw her she was dangling on the edge of a rope.  No Sam.  No Sansa.  Arya is cool but just doing more of the same (and doesn't bother to inform us about Sam).  Bran's journey is at an end but we don't know what it means.  The Iron Islanders never got where they were going.  What the hell is up with the Darkstar? Loras? Thoros? Caitlin? A lot of characters spent a lot of time getting kicked in the teeth and never overcame.

I'm also somewhat disappointed in the Tyrion portions.  I like my Lannister dwarves scheming and overcoming adversity with awesomeness.  I understand that his family was everything to him and they betrayed him and his own revenge scarred him terribly, but I could have done with less slave-clown and a little more paying people to stab other people.

Mostly I think this is all a result of the terrible idea to split the books across different groups.  It's jumbled all the storylines and resolutions aren't happening in the right pacing.

Overall, though, I still think of this as a segment of a single huge-ass book, so I was still very happy to have more to read.  And there was a lot of really awesome stuff.  The Lamprey lord was very cool.  Reek made me cringe but that seems like it's shaping up into a very good story as well.  The addition of the new Targaryen was jarring (usually something like that would first be mentioned obliquely at least by some other party beforehand, but I suspect that might have been part of Martin's "Dornish Knot"), but his protector sounds like he's made of interesting stuff.  Plus, he's on a timeline.  Lots of interesting things happening at the Wall and in Dorne.

So comparing it to other Martin books I won't say it's the best, but I still loved reading it.

[otter]

Jon's not a Targaryen, Davos found out that Ned got Jon on a fishwife.

He's also been said to be Ashara Dayne's.  Or Willa's.

[Corbin]

Also, I am pretty convinced that the secret ingredient in those wonderful Lamprey Pies that Manderly made for the Roose wedding in Winterfell was Frey. Three of them to be specific.  Yum.

[Andromache]

Jon's not a Targaryen, Davos found out that Ned got Jon on a fishwife.

He's also been said to be Ashara Dayne's.  Or Willa's.

Ya, I don't believe it a bit.

[otter]

From people who *really* look deeply into John's possible parentage:

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/FAQ/Entry/2291/

[Lucy St. Jude]

Interesting link.  It was clearly written before ADWD but it could support the fishwife story.  It notes that Jon was conceived in the being of the Rebellion, when Ned was leaving the Vale to head to Winterfell to raise his banners and that Ned would most likely have returned to the North by sea, giving him the opportunity to get stranded on the Sisters and knock up a fishwife.

[Rainee]

Having read all but the first one again very recently, I feel like I have been hit over the head with a fucking brick about Rhaegar and Lyanna hooking up after Harrenhal.  And Ned maybe hooked up with Ashara Dayne at Harrenhal, but their kid was miscarried or stillborn, and she chucked herself off the tower.  When Bran was the weirwood in the past, Ned was praying that Jon and Robb be "as brothers," which, if they were half-brothers, seems superfluous.

[Andromache]

Having read all but the first one again very recently, I feel like I have been hit over the head with a fucking brick about Rhaegar and Lyanna hooking up after Harrenhal.  And Ned maybe hooked up with Ashara Dayne at Harrenhal, but their kid was miscarried or stillborn, and she chucked herself off the tower.  When Bran was the weirwood in the past, Ned was praying that Jon and Robb be "as brothers," which, if they were half-brothers, seems superfluous.

Also, and I could be misremembering, Robert didn't even know who John's mother was, which seems silly. And I just don't think it suits his character to have cheated on his wife and bring home a baby for her to raise  rubbing her face in it. It makes sense that it was really his sister's. I guess we'll find out soon enough. Or it doesn't matter after all considering the whole knifey knife thing   Stoopid Martin!

[Rainee]

Yeah, this will never be one of my favorite book series because I can't get emotionally involved with any of the characters.

[Corbin]

Yeah, this will never be one of my favorite book series because I can't get emotionally involved with any of the characters.

I wish I could say the same. I have to believe that Jon isn't really gone, but I am afraid what he is going to be like when he comes back.

[Lucy St. Jude]

Yeah, this will never be one of my favorite book series because I can't get emotionally involved with any of the characters.

Weird, I feel the exact opposite. 

[Corbin]

This video cracked me up.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0Jm_mT1G8Q&feature=player_embedded

[Derrick Heyoka]

I imagine Jon will be Ghost will be Jon, though probably in the background and more wolf than man, but eventually the whole Second Life thing will probably lead somewhere.  Maybe Jon'll learn to possess his way back into a human body like Six Skins, maybe a giant. 

[Derrick Heyoka]

I was annoyed by Quenten's out-of-nowhere blood of the dragon story until he burned his hand on the candle, and we saw just where that was headed.  If Aegon is the only new Targaryen, I'm OK with it, especially since it finally pulled Varys back into play, even if it was only in the epilogue.  I don't hate the lack of story lines conclusions as much as I would have in another novel, knowing how the book was sliced in two.

[Derrick Heyoka]

Anyone taking bets on Hizdar btw?  Or Mance?  I couldn't help but notice that Ramsay's letter wanted Jon to give him back his Reek, but he'd have found Theon if he'd killed Stannis (probably).  So I'm thinking Mance got captured sneaking into Winterfell and interrogated, the rest of the letter was bullshit.

Edit:  RE Hizdar, seems like Victarian is destined to kill him, according to the Black Flame.  Yeah?

[Derrick Heyoka]

Also, I couldn't help but wonder at Melisandre's words "I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R'hllor shows me only Snow."

Speaking of Melisandre, anyone kind of wish the books weren't ramping up the high fantasy knob so much?

[Andromache]

So you finally finished it there Moo?

[Derrick Heyoka]

So you finally finished it there Moo?

Obvs!!! 

[Andromache]

So you finally finished it there Moo?

Obvs!!! 

I told you that you would have to wait for it, but did you think enough people died? Or were you hoping for more? I was a bit sad about Kevan, he seemed like he really could have done some good toward fixing Cersei's debacle. Too bad some thought it wasn't "good for the realm"

[Derrick Heyoka]

I told you that you would have to wait for it, but did you think enough people died? Or were you hoping for more? I was a bit sad about Kevan, he seemed like he really could have done some good toward fixing Cersei's debacle. Too bad some thought it wasn't "good for the realm"

Yeah, Kevan seemed like a good guy, so he had to die.  It's amazing Selmy is still alive. 

At about 89% in and no important deaths (and indeed, Davos undying) I was worried he'd grown soft.  Now I see that he was just luring me into a false fear of that, only to kill Quenten, and then murder Jon Snow me right in the face, which I didn't think he'd even consider doing until book seven.  Then Kevan's death came super fast, so yeah, no, he's still a horrible, horrible person that I very much appreciate.

I'll be toasting Jon Snow for months.